Array
(
    [content] => 
    [params] => Array
        (
            [0] => /forum/threads/insightful-intel-diagnosis-strategeion.23106/
        )

    [addOns] => Array
        (
            [DL6/MLTP] => 13
            [Hampel/TimeZoneDebug] => 1000070
            [SV/ChangePostDate] => 2010200
            [SemiWiki/Newsletter] => 1000010
            [SemiWiki/WPMenu] => 1000010
            [SemiWiki/XPressExtend] => 1000010
            [ThemeHouse/XLink] => 1000970
            [ThemeHouse/XPress] => 1010570
            [XF] => 2021770
            [XFI] => 1050270
        )

    [wordpress] => /var/www/html
)

Insightful Intel Diagnosis @ Strategeion

benb

Well-known member
My Summary:

The author believes Intel focus on highly customized design rules for x86 HPC cores prevented success on GPUs and hinders Foundry. He offers several insights I haven't encountered before (with just one reference provided however). This diagnosis appears to have much to do with why Lip-Bu Tan was selected as CEO, since the problem lies in design software, his area of expertise.

- Intel's focused strategy "enabled close coordination between circuit design and manufacturing process engineering. This close coordination focused intently on the speed and performance of its x86 CPUs."

- "Intel established a close integration between circuit design and fabrication processes by employing highly customized design rules. Users of merchant foundries were required to adhere to the rules provided by the foundry, which were designed to ensure first-pass silicon success. In contrast, Intel developed advanced lithography processes in tandem with design, frequently overcoming timing bottlenecks by aligning process and design efforts."

- "Intel developed and maintained proprietary chip design tools for routing (where metal connections are laid out), placement (where logic gates are situated), timing analysis, and power and thermal analysis. In particular, Intel’s custom power grids required logic that commercial design tools could not manage."

-"In practice, this meant that Intel's chip layouts tended to be grid-like and uniform, boosting yields on cutting-edge processes while constraining circuit designers to a limited range of geometries. This tight integration also allowed Intel to take risks with new materials and transistor structures, such as high-k dielectrics, strained silicon, and FinFETs, ahead of other foundries."

-"Intel’s intense focus on CPU performance hindered its development of more complex multi-function chips and systems. When attempting to compete with NVIDIA’s graphics GPUs in 1998, Intel’s i740 fell short because Intel’s design rules were optimized for high-speed CPUs rather than GPUs."

-"Intel started using EUV for its 7nm node, aiming for production in 2021. However, production issues emerged again, pushing back volume production to late 2023. The main challenges included mask defects, partly caused by Intel’s dependence on its proprietary design rules, software, EDA tools, and workflows."

Link: https://strategeion.substack.com/p/intels-fall-from-grace
 
My Summary:

The author believes Intel focus on highly customized design rules for x86 HPC cores prevented success on GPUs and hinders Foundry. He offers several insights I haven't encountered before (with just one reference provided however). This diagnosis appears to have much to do with why Lip-Bu Tan was selected as CEO, since the problem lies in design software, his area of expertise.

- Intel's focused strategy "enabled close coordination between circuit design and manufacturing process engineering. This close coordination focused intently on the speed and performance of its x86 CPUs."

- "Intel established a close integration between circuit design and fabrication processes by employing highly customized design rules. Users of merchant foundries were required to adhere to the rules provided by the foundry, which were designed to ensure first-pass silicon success. In contrast, Intel developed advanced lithography processes in tandem with design, frequently overcoming timing bottlenecks by aligning process and design efforts."

- "Intel developed and maintained proprietary chip design tools for routing (where metal connections are laid out), placement (where logic gates are situated), timing analysis, and power and thermal analysis. In particular, Intel’s custom power grids required logic that commercial design tools could not manage."

-"In practice, this meant that Intel's chip layouts tended to be grid-like and uniform, boosting yields on cutting-edge processes while constraining circuit designers to a limited range of geometries. This tight integration also allowed Intel to take risks with new materials and transistor structures, such as high-k dielectrics, strained silicon, and FinFETs, ahead of other foundries."

-"Intel’s intense focus on CPU performance hindered its development of more complex multi-function chips and systems. When attempting to compete with NVIDIA’s graphics GPUs in 1998, Intel’s i740 fell short because Intel’s design rules were optimized for high-speed CPUs rather than GPUs."

-"Intel started using EUV for its 7nm node, aiming for production in 2021. However, production issues emerged again, pushing back volume production to late 2023. The main challenges included mask defects, partly caused by Intel’s dependence on its proprietary design rules, software, EDA tools, and workflows."

Link: https://strategeion.substack.com/p/intels-fall-from-grace
Laughable and shows their total ignorance of what is behind Intel failures
 
I don't believe it.
If it's customized design rules,the area should be smaller and speed should be higher.

It is true, always has been. Remember, this is not the first time Intel has gone into the foundry business. The Intel PDKs are a different breed from foundry PDKs and TSMC PDKs are the best the foundry industry has ever experienced.

I was working with Altera when they moved to Intel. The Intel design rules were so different it was a real struggle for Altera to move designs over and the Altera foundry team was pretty good. Altera was really tight with TSMC and helped develop the TSMC PDKs and ramp processes for many years so they knew PDKs.

The feedback I have heard from customers who tried Intel 18A is that the PDK was the problem and design rules are a big part of that. I also heard that MediaTek is also having PDK problems and that is an older node.

If Lip-Bu can indeed get customers involved with 14A development that should fix the PDK problem. That is how TSMC does it and with customers comes more customers, ecosystem, partners, fame and fortune, absolutely.
 
If Lip-Bu can indeed get customers involved with 14A development that should fix the PDK problem. That is how TSMC does it and with customers comes more customers, ecosystem, partners, fame and fortune, absolutely.
Why do it yourself? let's others to help.
It's maybe a small business for Intel, it's a big business opportunity for a startup.
 
We also tried to approach Intel . But got NO.

Bitcoin chips are the best application for all fabs' new nodes and initial mass production.
1, bitcoin can tolerate low yield.
Bitcoin mining chips may be the only type of chips that can tolerate a low yield.
2, The logic of Bitcoin mining chips is simple, which enables quick pinpointing of the issues.
3, Smic 7nm and Samsung 4nm process utilized for the gradual optimization of Bitcoin mining chips

Bitcoin is the only chip scenario that can generate revenue for you under low yield conditions.
 
It is true, always has been. Remember, this is not the first time Intel has gone into the foundry business. The Intel PDKs are a different breed from foundry PDKs and TSMC PDKs are the best the foundry industry has ever experienced.

I was working with Altera when they moved to Intel. The Intel design rules were so different it was a real struggle for Altera to move designs over and the Altera foundry team was pretty good. Altera was really tight with TSMC and helped develop the TSMC PDKs and ramp processes for many years so they knew PDKs.

The feedback I have heard from customers who tried Intel 18A is that the PDK was the problem and design rules are a big part of that. I also heard that MediaTek is also having PDK problems and that is an older node.

If Lip-Bu can indeed get customers involved with 14A development that should fix the PDK problem. That is how TSMC does it and with customers comes more customers, ecosystem, partners, fame and fortune, absolutely.
Question for Dan:

"Intel developed and maintained proprietary chip design tools for routing, placement, timing analysis, and power and thermal analysis."

I can intuit how this would create a barrier for customers who had never encountered the Intel custom software and struggle with getting started using that instead of industry-standards. How different is Intel's design software compared to industry standards? Is it a barrier for Intel to give it to a prospective customer who may be eager to reverse engineer it?
 
Question for Dan:

"Intel developed and maintained proprietary chip design tools for routing, placement, timing analysis, and power and thermal analysis."

I can intuit how this would create a barrier for customers who had never encountered the Intel custom software and struggle with getting started using that instead of industry-standards. How different is Intel's design software compared to industry standards? Is it a barrier for Intel to give it to a prospective customer who may be eager to reverse engineer it?
Like most other big semi houses, Intel has been ramping down internal tool development, working with all top EDA companies. They are just much slower in this process. It is impossible for any serious external design houses to use Intel internal tool sets.
 
Question for Dan:

"Intel developed and maintained proprietary chip design tools for routing, placement, timing analysis, and power and thermal analysis."

I can intuit how this would create a barrier for customers who had never encountered the Intel custom software and struggle with getting started using that instead of industry-standards. How different is Intel's design software compared to industry standards? Is it a barrier for Intel to give it to a prospective customer who may be eager to reverse engineer it?
Why?
Unless Intel is stupid enough to create a total different data struct which makes no sense at all.
It's only a new choice if you want to compare, you can also use the old tools.
spice model, verilog , sdc , RC , CTS, lib , etc, 90% data should be able to translate will some perl/tcl script.
DRC ,LVS, starrc ,there's no reason you cannot re-extract with models.
 
We also tried to approach Intel . But got NO.

Bitcoin chips are the best application for all fabs' new nodes and initial mass production.
1, bitcoin can tolerate low yield.
Bitcoin mining chips may be the only type of chips that can tolerate a low yield.
2, The logic of Bitcoin mining chips is simple, which enables quick pinpointing of the issues.
3, Smic 7nm and Samsung 4nm process utilized for the gradual optimization of Bitcoin mining chips

Bitcoin is the only chip scenario that can generate revenue for you under low yield conditions.
Bitmain has huge volumes at TSMC on leading edge node! The actually started the run in Fab21 but quietly canceled duh
 
Bitmain has huge volumes at TSMC on leading edge node! The actually started the run in Fab21 but quietly canceled duh
I am not sure if it's true, but I heard it's T who canceled the production because of Sophgo.
There're too many wierd stories on this, no one knows what really happened.
 
Back
Top