China condemns US move to revoke semiconductor waivers for Intel China, Samsung, SK Hynix
- Thread starter Daniel Nenni
- Start date
I am not sure why some people think that, if we keep our doors wide open and sell all and any of the advanced chips and advanced chip making equipment to China, that will enable us to somehow stifle or even kill off China's own chip makers and equipment makers.
By the same logic, should we start taking orders from China for F-35 and nuclear-powered aircraft carriers ?
By the same logic, should we start taking orders from China for F-35 and nuclear-powered aircraft carriers ?
Which product is harder to make, including all supply chains - machineries and materials?
1. Jetliner Engines for China C919.
2. 2nm chips from TSMC.
No, this means no more parts sales. This closes a loophole: You can build a prohibited advanced tool from a basic tool by buying up all the advanced tool parts and assembling it on the basic tool. Result: An advanced tool (plus learning how to build an advanced tool).
No more parts sales is not the end of the world nor is it business as usual. The choices you have narrow; since you can't just phone the vendor and order the OEM part. You can canibalize the part from another similar tool. Or you can second source the part, possibly losing some of the advanced part functionality. Or you can repair or refurbish the broken part. Most fab equipment engineers have experience with all these options and employ them to save money even when the part is still available from OEM.
I assume 2 nm chips from TSMC is more difficult because the US can manufacture jet engines but does not have the engineering sophistication to manufacture TSMC N2 chips by itself.
Pretty simple really. Go back to the previous rules where the Chinese could only get tools that are two generations old.
By imposing a hard cutoff the US is creating a market for Chinese tool makers to exploit. If the Chinese tool makers were chasing a moving target their task would be a lot harder.
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hist78
Well-known member
Removing TSMC’s Nanjing fab from the U.S. VEU list has nothing to do with advanced nodes or advanced technology. China’s semiconductor industry already produces chips at 28nm and even down to the 7nm “class,” in addition to what is made at TSMC’s Nanjing fab.
The TSMC Nanjing fab produces two older, mature nodes: 16nm and 28nm.
This fab began high-volume manufacturing (HVM) for 16nm in 2018 and for 28nm in 2022. When the 28nm project was proposed in 2021, some Chinese commentators criticized the expansion as an intentional move to undermine China’s nascent domestic semiconductor industry. It's because TSMC’s mature nodes are superior in cost, technology, yield, and capacity.
For comparison, TSMC started high volume production for its 16nm process in 2015 and for 28nm in 2011.
If we believe TSMC won’t abandon its $6 billion investment in the Nanjing fab, then where will it obtain equipment and parts for that facility from now on? The obvious answer is from Chinese suppliers.
So, did the Trump administration’s VEU policy end up helping China’s domestic semiconductor equipment suppliers and mature node manufacturers?
TSMC wanted to make the non-EUV 7nm process at Nanjing as well but the US government forbade them from doing it.
Anyway the point back then was to get a Made in China label to sell chips to the Chinese government. Since most of those chip design companies are getting into the Entity List this is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
TSMC went into China in the first place to steal market share from companies like SMIC. To prevent them from growing.
Anyway the point back then was to get a Made in China label to sell chips to the Chinese government. Since most of those chip design companies are getting into the Entity List this is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
TSMC went into China in the first place to steal market share from companies like SMIC. To prevent them from growing.
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