TSMC’s debacle in the American desert Missed deadlines and tension among Taiwanese and American coworkers are plaguing the chip giant’s Phoenix expans

[Xebec]

I thought this article was pretty fair.

It covered a whole lot of topics, and gave the engineers a chance to voice their opinions. From my experience, some of the opinions sound like new hires who aren’t used to work in large companies with strict IP rules. “I had to have a special work phone with limited apps” — that’s pretty normal course in some other industries, especially Defense.

Then switching to the long working hours, and strict obedience to leadership — that definitely varies by company, but I’ve found older companies are more likely to have the stricter hierarchy. Seems reasonable that this would be a challenge for some while working for others.

The language barriers and Taiwan vs US differences…. There are a lot of well documented examples of multi national companies having issues like this. The dysfunction of Sega in the 1990s between its Japanese and US divisions is legendary, and there are many more like that. I’m not surprised a Taiwanese-US venture would face some of these challenges.

I was expecting the work culture of Taiwan (I’m assuming it’s similar to Korea and Japan — prioritize work over life) would be a shock, TSMC probably needs to ‘learn’ here. If they’re struggling in the US, imagine introducing this to some of the Western European countries. (That said - US work culture varies greatly by location too).

I suspect there’s undue “suspicion” on both sides (the US and Taiwanese workers) which is unfortunate. Hopefully there is strong leadership looking at these issues and working to build the trust that any ‘forming’ team needs to do to become high performing.

 

[blueone]

I thought this article was pretty fair.

I hope not. The role of a great manager is to maximize the results from their teams, whatever it takes. If that article was accurate on a broad scale, the TSMC managers are fools, and I'm skeptical that's the case. There are always bad apple managers in every company, but the article implied it was common in TSMC.

 

[Xebec]

I hope not. The role of a great manager is to maximize the results from their teams, whatever it takes. If that article was accurate on a broad scale, the TSMC managers are fools, and I'm skeptical that's the case. There are always bad apple managers in every company, but the article implied it was common in TSMC.

Fair, I also hope this isn't common.

I wouldn't say if it's happening on a broad scale it's necessarily the fault of the managers - it could be the corporate culture. If the company culture is to work long hours, and worship leadership -- that's going to force the managers to act a certain way.

When I was younger, working at Lockheed Martin, 20th century - it was pretty normal to see that some leaders who wouldn't even talk to people unless they were a certain "level" within the company. There was a lot of "waving" of degrees around implying that someone was better than someone else. A very old company with a very old culture. Fortunately by the time I left a lot of that had changed, but even spectacular managers would run into issues when they'd try to work up the chain with leadership acting that way.

Another example is SpaceX today -- a hardcore engineering firm, but I think you'll find generally, it's more the junior engineers that are interested in working there than the senior engineers -- because of the lack of work/life balance that the company is known for.

Whatever is going on - this is still early days for TSMC in Arizona. They have time to learn and turn this around.

 

[Daniel Nenni]

Tons and tons of people in Asia constantly trying to smear and wishing TSMC Arizona will be a total failure, divide between Taiwanese and American. Particularly from mainland China. For obvious reasons...

Very true, TSMC was quite clear today at the symposium about AZ being on track and ready to go (N4) by year end.

To me what this all proves is that the US will never be a major power in leading edge semiconductor manufacturing due to this cultural nonsense and the cost. TSMC proved that with the Japan build and will prove it again in Dresden. So the question is: Who really benefits from this kind of nonsense? China? Taiwan? Intel? It is certainly a black eye for Gina Raimondo and the Chips Act.

 

[blueone]

To me what this all proves is that the US will never be a major power in leading edge semiconductor manufacturing due to this cultural nonsense and the cost. TSMC proved that with the Japan build and will prove it again in Dresden. So the question is: Who really benefits from this kind of nonsense? China? Taiwan? Intel? It is certainly a black eye for Gina Raimondo and the Chips Act.

I'm not following you, Dan. Are you saying the American engineers are the problem?

 

[hskuo]

I'm not following you, Dan. Are you saying the American engineers are the problem?

My opinion, it is problem. Not engineers' problem, but it is culture conflicts between Western and Eastern, Fab operation culture and talented people with high education. tsmc built their US fab (WaferTech) for around 3 decades, but if we remembered Dr. Morris Chang still thought semiconductor manufacturing did not fit well in US recently. It sounds like tsmc spend 20-30 years to fill the gap, but it still does not work. Arizona Fab is the most recent evidence. Will the remote site operation (we learned from COVID pandemic) or AI in semiconductor manufacturing become the savors?
I remembered Dr. CC Wei said he will use ChatGPT to prepare his material in next Tech Symposium. Let's see what AI capabilities have been implemented as a check.

 

[osnium]

Very true, TSMC was quite clear today at the symposium about AZ being on track and ready to go (N4) by year end.

To me what this all proves is that the US will never be a major power in leading edge semiconductor manufacturing due to this cultural nonsense and the cost. TSMC proved that with the Japan build and will prove it again in Dresden. So the question is: Who really benefits from this kind of nonsense? China? Taiwan? Intel? It is certainly a black eye for Gina Raimondo and the Chips Act.

Do you think the Chips Act was a mistake? More importantly, if the US workforce is not capable, should US engineers even bother with going into the semiconductor manufacturing industry if they are not competitive due to poor work ethic and skills?

 

[Xebec]

Very true, TSMC was quite clear today at the symposium about AZ being on track and ready to go (N4) by year end.

To me what this all proves is that the US will never be a major power in leading edge semiconductor manufacturing due to this cultural nonsense and the cost. TSMC proved that with the Japan build and will prove it again in Dresden. So the question is: Who really benefits from this kind of nonsense? China? Taiwan? Intel? It is certainly a black eye for Gina Raimondo and the Chips Act.

Wasn't the US the major power in leading edge semiconductor for decades before AMD sold it's fabs and Intel stumbled? Why can't it happen again?

The cost and cultural nonsense can be dealt with.. look at Tesla leading the way for EV manufacturing, or honestly even car manufacturing if you look at gross margins.

 

[hskuo]

Wasn't the US the major power in leading edge semiconductor for decades before AMD sold it's fabs and Intel stumbled? Why can't it happen again?

The cost and cultural nonsense can be dealt with.. look at Tesla leading the way for EV manufacturing, or honestly even car manufacturing if you look at gross margins.

It is not that easy. China EV grows very quick and competes with Tesla head-to-head now, but I don't think China can catch-up in semiconductor manufacturing in next 5-10 years when advanced equipment is embargoed. The $7 Trillion investment pitch to build AI Fabs from Sam Altman is actually nonsense and I did not hear Elon Musk ever said he wanted to build fabs, like Jerry Sanders said "Real Men Have Fabs" decades ago.

 

[nghanayem]

I have a lot of disorganized thoughts, so I will try to have them listed as coherently as possible:

Originally I had thought that the TSMC AZ stuff was way overblown, but there is too much evidence that I can no longer just write everything off anymore. There is clearly some degree of issues (albeit how much and if they are now mostly smoothed over is unclear). What does seem pretty clear at this time is that TSMC didn't do all of their homework before starting this endeavor.

On the topic of hard work, I have a few thoughts. I think a lot of folks had assumed that a job at a chip manufacturer would be closer to a job at Microsoft or AMD, rather than like a job at P&G or DOW. So it doesn't surprise me that there is a sizable number of burnouts when people learn it just isn't for them. The line about fab phones is a good example of what I mean. It isn't just a security thing either, but also my understanding is they pick models to minimize RF disrupting the plasmas of nearby chambers (similar to how newer iPhone radios can stop people's pacemakers). Almost all semi firms also seem to love hiring overqualified PhD people to do BS jobs, and BS folks to be overqualified technicians (albeit the later seems to be less common than the former). If you are a PhD person who wants to do research, doing process engineer/sustaining tasks will definitely be a turn off for those kinds of people. In my opinion this industry wide practice is easily the dumbest part of this whole industry. IMO PhD's should be process chemists/CR researchers/development team integration members only. That way your manufacturing applicant pools open way up, your avg cost per employee goes down, and you end up with less burned out folks who feel lied to. But there is so much bad press that it seems like this goes beyond what you would expect if it was just the above items.

As for the idea that Americans are just not cut out for the discipline or rigor needed to be successful in the semi manufacturing industry I am completely unconvinced. Intel, Ti, Samsung, and GF all have significant US presences and do well for themselves. If they were unsatisfied they would have stopped expanding in the US. Heck my understanding is that when it comes to 14LPP foundry business (Samsung's most succesful foundry node to date) that Samsung Austin was/is the whole network for that node family (and was also where Apple did there iPhone SOCs). And while intel technically hasn't proven anything on the cost effective manufacturing front, I don't think there is any indication that intel America employees work less hard than TSMC employees. Besides the fact that I see plenty of sleepless nights from American process engineers and techs working themselves to the bone in hot bunny suits, I think a good case study is in the area of TD. Intel 3 has if nothing else closed the PPW gap with TSMC vs where they were in 2021. If D1 employees just worked SO MUCH less than TSMC's Fab 12 guys, the only way for intel to close the gap is for their engineers to just be wildly smarter than TSMC's. TSMC's engineers are far far far from dumb (same thing with Samsung's engineers). With that said my gut feeling is that engineers from all three work very hard and are similarly competent, with those little 1% differences/raw execution being what determines how technology competitiveness shakes out. And then there is the elephant in the room; Micron. They compete with Samsung and SK all firms with deeper pockets. And in Samsung's case they are well known to have no respect for their employees and working them to the bone. Yet Micron leads both of these firms. They also navigate wild language differences (ENG, JP, Mandarin, and Malay) in their global manufacturing network. If we have all of these examples in the logic and memory side of semiconductor manufacturing excellence and technology development excellence is the problem more likely to be the American worker or is it just TSMC? My bet is if it has to be one that it is the later being in the wrong not everyone else.

Hiring practice wise in TW TSMC could use their prestige (and lack of non electronics industry jobs) to get away with worse comp/vacation packages. I have even heard that folks like UMC/Micron need to actually have better packages just to overcome that prestige wall (that seems plausible, but I obviously can't personally comment on the veracity of those claims or just how big the gap is). In the USA that is a no-go since there are tons of great options. For example I bet Chevron-Phillips pays more for an equivalent engineer than TSMC. So if I am an American who wants to be a process engineer, I would be stupid to work at TSMC unless they gave better benefits, more vacation time, or if I really want to work in the Semi industry. I think it is possible that TSMC overvalued the prestige of working there and many folks just said "nah I'll continue working at intel, P&G, 3M, ASM, ect".

Final thing that comes to mind reading the linked article is that this feels very reminiscent of TMG in the 2000s/2010s, which gives me bad energy. An environment of obedience is in my opinion not a good place to innovate, as then every idea needs to come from the top down. Now if you have a swarm of grizzled veteran engineers/techs maybe you can get away with that like TSMC has so far done. But even then with fewer eyes on a problem you will likely get sub-optimal ideas, and if you ever have a dilution than the whole system will fall apart. But if you instead have a culture where people are safe to learn and innovate you can over time have more experts and better solutions. The language barrier thing is also kind of surprising (in how bad it apparently is sense because it was a given that there was always going to be some degree of issues from that). Back when I was college senior who was applying all over I thought I remember my interviewers from TSMC explicitly telling me something to the effect that I didn't need to know any Chinese because everything would be in English. If these accounts are true that is just miserable for everyone involved. The trainee will feel like crap since they are having a hard time learning, and their superiors will be pissed at his "slow American transplant that is taking longer to learn this stuff than he did".

As for the TSMC Taiwan folks who are staying in AZ for the long haul I don't really get why folks are that rattled by it. You can't have an efficient fab of just new hires/RCGs. You need an experienced nucleus for these folks to grow from and solve the out of the ordinary issues that you can only solve after having seen it before.

Hope this is at least sort of comprehensible, and that whatever issues TSMC was having have been or will soon be fixed!

 

[Daniel Nenni]

I'm not following you, Dan. Are you saying the American engineers are the problem?

No, I'm saying today's American workforce is not a good match for cost effective semiconductor manufacturing. Throughout my career I have worked 40-60 hour weeks making a better life for my family. Who does that now? My four children certainly don't. They say my generation (Boomers) is all about money, which may be true, but growing up poor does that sometimes. And who can even afford to have four children? I remember telling people during my business travels that I had four children. The looks I got... Some would say "with the same woman?" Or "you must be rich!" Yes and No.

This is my 40th year in semiconductors. I traveled all over the world to make semiconductors more affordable. It is an honor and privilege to work with so many people around the world. I spent many months working in Japan, Taiwan, China, Korea, and all through Europe so I know a thing or two about multicultural semiconductor work ethic.

Work/life balance? All I know is that being poor sucks. Personally, I still work 40+ hours a week even though I could retire because I have grandchildren to think about. What will the world be like for them in the years to come? I can only imagine but having a little extra money will not hurt, absolutely.

 

[Daniel Nenni]

I have a lot of disorganized thoughts, so I will try to have them listed as coherently as possible:

Originally I had thought that the TSMC AZ stuff was way overblown, but there is to much evidence that I can no longer just write everything off anymore. There is clearly some degree of issues (albeit how much and if they are now mostly smoothed over is unclear). What does seem pretty clear at this time is that TSMC didn't do all of their homework before starting this endeavor.

Too much evidence?

Here's the thing, I actually know people who work there. Some are from Taiwan and some are from the US. Yes there was a learning curve for TSMC, maybe steeper than originally planned, we call it "shit happens". The question is how you deal with it.

Today TSMC AZ is a great place to work, especially for Taiwanese. Spend some time in Hsinchu and you will understand why. I also know people who work at Intel in AZ and Samsung in TX. Working at a semiconductor fab is not easy in today's work climate. You have to show up, you cannot make mistakes or play games because if you do you will be held accountable. Cost will always be a semiconductor problem and whoever has the lowest cost wafers with the best yield wins and work ethic is a part of that.

 

[TBiggs]

Too much evidence?

Today TSMC AZ is a great place to work, especially for Taiwanese. Spend some time in Hsinchu and you will understand why. I also know people who work at Intel in AZ and Samsung in TX. Working at a semiconductor fab is not easy in today's work climate. You have to show up, you cannot make mistakes or play games because if you do you will be held accountable. Cost will always be a semiconductor problem and whoever has the lowest cost wafers with the best yield wins and work ethic is a part of that.

I am sorry how do you know this, that for Taiwanese TSMCer Az is better, rumor is very different

 

[Daniel Nenni]

I am sorry how do you know this, that for Taiwanese TSMCer Az is better, rumor is very different

As I said, I know people who work there and because the Hsinchu Hotel Royal was my second home for many years. In a presentation today they showed fabs in Hsinchu with blue skies above. Clearly they were photoshopped because I don't think I have ever seen those skies before. But to your point, the grass is always greener on the other side of the hill. Maybe they will get home sick and hate AZ but for now I have heard good things. Personally I would never move to AZ. California is the place to be and I am not leaving, ever.

By the way, I have heard the same thing from friends in China. They want to work in the US and the people I know who moved here never want to return.

Here is a picture of me in Hsinchu near the Hotel Royal. Notice the sky?

 

[TBiggs]

As I said, I know people who work there and because the Hsinchu Hotel Royal was my second home for many years. In a presentation today they showed fabs in Hsinchu with blue skies above. Clearly they were photoshopped because I don't think I have ever seen those skies before. But to your point, the grass is always greener on the other side of the hill. Maybe they will get home sick and hate AZ but for now I have heard good things. Personally I would never move to AZ. California is the place to be and I am not leaving, ever.

By the way, I have heard the same thing from friends in China. They want to work in the US and the people I know who moved here never want to return.

Here is a picture of me in Hsinchu near the Hotel Royal. Notice the sky?

View attachment 1868

I rather like that Japanese restaurant in the Royal.

We should ask is there problems recruiting TSMCers who seek the American dream for Phase 2 or the soon to be needed replacement of those that want to return home.

 

[blueone]

No, I'm saying today's American workforce is not a good match for cost effective semiconductor manufacturing. Throughout my career I have worked 40-60 hour weeks making a better life for my family. Who does that now? My four children certainly don't.

We have four kids, all have spouses, and are all working. With one exception, a daughter, they all work more than 40 hrs/week. One son more like 50-60, because he's on call and travels. The daughter who doesn't is an executive recruiter, so she lives in a different world than I could ever imagine.

All of my "young" friends, meaning they're in their 30s or 40s, work about 45 or more hours per week. Some much more. All are in some aspect of hardware or software development. So pretty much everyone I know works on a schedule like that now.

They say my generation (Boomers) is all about money, which may be true, but growing up poor does that sometimes. And who can even afford to have four children? I remember telling people during my business travels that I had four children. The looks I got... Some would say "with the same woman?" Or "you must be rich!" Yes and No.

I know what you mean. In the mid-2000s all four kids were in college, and my wife quit her job to get a graduate degree. So five at once. When people I just met asked what my job was, I often said "university fund raiser". They thought I was joking.

This is my 40th year in semiconductors. I traveled all over the world to make semiconductors more affordable. It is an honor and privilege to work with so many people around the world. I spent many months working in Japan, Taiwan, China, Korea, and all through Europe so I know a thing or two about multicultural semiconductor work ethic.

Work/life balance? All I know is that being poor sucks. Personally, I still work 40+ hours a week even though I could retire because I have grandchildren to think about. What will the world be like for them in the years to come? I can only imagine but having a little extra money will not hurt, absolutely.

I never understood work-life balance either. I was always working or in learning mode. Early in my career, when I was a software developer, I would wake up in the middle of the night to code a solution to a problem that came to me spontaneously. I retired a few years ago, and it was weird. For the first time since I was 16, I could do whatever I want, whenever I want to do it. Now that I've had a taste of that there's no going back.

 

[nghanayem]

Too much evidence?

Here's the thing, I actually know people who work there. Some are from Taiwan and some are from the US. Yes there was a learning curve for TSMC, maybe steeper than originally planned, we call it "shit happens". The question is how you deal with it.

Today TSMC AZ is a great place to work, especially for Taiwanese. Spend some time in Hsinchu and you will understand why. I also know people who work at Intel in AZ and Samsung in TX. Working at a semiconductor fab is not easy in today's work climate. You have to show up, you cannot make mistakes or play games because if you do you will be held accountable. Cost will always be a semiconductor problem and whoever has the lowest cost wafers with the best yield wins and work ethic is a part of that.

This is kind of my point Dan. Originally I had assumed the negative talk around TSMC AZ was completely empty fear mongering from a small number of folks with an axe to grind and or instances of people not understanding that manufacturing (and not just for semis) is hard/high pressure work. Unfortunately there have been simply too many reported safety incidents and worker complaints for every single instance to be false, exaggerated, or overblown. To make matters worse it also just seemed like there was a greater volume of complaints than with other manufacturers, which isn't exactly something that inspires confidence. If the worst is over and things are fixed that is good - even if they really should have already known better after already having a US fab for decades - but better late than never I guess.

 

[Xebec]

A bit OT - I’ve taken two mid career sabbaticals for 12+ months each, influenced by an old TED talk - “The power of time off”. The question was - do you work to 65, or take some significant time off when you’re younger and healthier, maybe working later.

I had no concept of work/life balance until my first sabbatical in my late 30s (I was also nearing total burnout from a series of bad bosses). My blood pressure dropped 20 pts - permanently - after leaving that first major company (Lockheed Martin), and has never gone back up. I learned A LOT during my time off — about myself, how the world works, and the real value of work and time.

Yes I am very privileged to have had the opportunity (the first time off was thanks to taking a voluntary layoff that resulted in nearly a year of pay when severance combined with my 400+ hours of unused vacation over the years).

Time off and work/life balance is really be one of those - you don’t know until you try it things. Same with retirement. If you think you’ll be bored in retirement, then you lack imagination. It’s also true that you lose some identity when you stop working, that’s psychologically tough. But if you truly love your work - then I definitely understand wanting to work more of your healthy years away..

 

[Jozo035]

I think that people are the same everywhere and collapse of birth rates suggests that chinese people might not be that happy with long-term 996 culture. Taiwan and Korea are even worse. And this can cause, among other problems, general worker shortage... so i don't think this is the race You want to compete in.

 

[Barnsley]

I think that people are the same everywhere and collapse of birth rates suggests that chinese people might not be that happy with long-term 996 culture. Taiwan and Korea are even worse. And this can cause, among other problems, general worker shortage... so i don't think this is the race You want to compete in.

East Asia birth rates have indeed dropped like a stone , maybe all work and no life isnt the way.