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Thread: Qualcomm commits to TSMC 7nm

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    Qualcomm commits to TSMC 7nm

    Qualcomm’s Snapdragon 855 Will Be Manufactured Using TSMC’s 7nm Node; Chip Giant Will Return To Samsung In 2019

    My thoughts:
    - TSMC, GF in the lead on 7/10nm (5x nm CPP), Samsung and Intel a step (or two) behind
    - Can Samsung Foundry survive the loss of Qualcomm?

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    Last edited by Daniel Nenni; 12-23-2017 at 05:20 PM.
     

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    Samsung bet ill advisedly on EUV based 7LPP and its paying for that strategic blunder with the loss of QCOM business at the leading edge in 2019. I still think if Samsung uses its investment in EUV to accelerate 5nm/4nm they could recover from this setback. SS has deep pockets to survive such setbacks and can persist with foundry efforts in the long run. What SS needs is more pragmatic technology choices / decisions and competing on all aspects going forward. Time to market is critical and SS should use this lesson to improve execution at future nodes. If SS can deliver 4nm GAA in 2020 for risk production and 2021 for HVM they would do quite well.

    Beyond 7nm - the race to 4nm is Samsung's to lose - Android Authority

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    Last edited by raghu78; 12-23-2017 at 05:29 PM.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by raghu78 View Post
    Samsung bet ill advisedly on EUV based 7LPP and its paying for that strategic blunder with the loss of QCOM business at the leading edge in 2019. I still think if Samsung uses its investment in EUV to accelerate 5nm/4nm they could recover from this setback. SS has deep pockets to survive such setbacks and can persist In the long run. What SS needs is more pragmatic technology choices / decisions and competing on all aspects going forward. Time to market is critical and SS should use this lesson to improve execution at future nodes. If SS can deliver 4nm GAA in 2020 for risk production and 2021 for HVM they would do quite well.

    Beyond 7nm - the race to 4nm is Samsung's to lose - Android Authority

    QCOM is using TSMC 7nm for SoCs and modems which have already been taped-out and now they are back at Samsung. QCOM is the quintessential fabless company and will go where the best Ts&Cs are, absolutely. That will change of course when Broadcom acquires Qualcomm. Hock Tan is a TSMC fan all the way....

    Samsung has a culture problem in doing whatever it takes to be first, even if that means misleading customers and eating wafer costs due to low yield or production delays. Samsung will be the first to EUV but what will that really get them other than a conference paper or two? Thankfully Samsung is making money on memory hand-over-fist because I highly doubt their foundry business will ever make a profit moving forward. Same for Intel for different reasons of course.

    So the foundry / top customer landscape is: TSMC/Apple, GF/AMD, SS/SS, and Intel/Intel leaving QCOM to play the field. Just my opinion of course...

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    Samsung has 8nm but that may not be competitive enough against TSMC/GF 7nm. Best hope of recovery would be something like "7LPE" which doesn't use EUV, but at this point, it looks too late to develop that.

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    If Qualcomm switches to TSMC again they will lose Samsumg as customer for their chips so it doesn't make sense to go for TSMC's 7nm for a bit better PPA if you lose your biggest customer. They don't have any competition in the Android high end SOC market so they don't have to be that aggressive with the risk of losing money.

    Also going for TSMC 7nm will be more expensive and harder than just use SS 8nm that will have more free wafers ( Apple, big GPUs, and maybe Huawei will suck almost all the volume of TSMC) and it is based on their existing 10nm so they got more experience to desing on that node so they don't have to re-learn TSMC's 7nm.

    “ 8LPP will have a fast ramp since it uses proven 10nm process technology while providing better performance and scalability than current 10nm-based products ” said RK Chunduru, Senior Vice President of Qualcomm.

    Edit: Not to forget TSMC has under-delivered in their targets of Performance and Power in their 10/7FF processes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lodix View Post
    If Qualcomm switches to TSMC again they will lose Samsumg as customer for their chips so it doesn't make sense to go for TSMC's 7nm for a bit better PPA if you lose your biggest customer. They don't have any competition in the Android high end SOC market so they don't have to be that aggressive with the risk of losing money.

    Also going for TSMC 7nm will be more expensive and harder than just use SS 8nm that will have more free wafers ( Apple, big GPUs, and maybe Huawei will suck almost all the volume of TSMC) and it is based on their existing 10nm so they got more experience to desing on that node so they don't have to re-learn TSMC's 7nm.

    “ 8LPP will have a fast ramp since it uses proven 10nm process technology while providing better performance and scalability than current 10nm-based products ” said RK Chunduru, Senior Vice President of Qualcomm.

    Edit: Not to forget TSMC has under-delivered in their targets of Performance and Power in their 10/7FF processes.
    TSMC has under-delivered 7ff? Do tell...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Nenni View Post
    TSMC has under-delivered 7ff? Do tell...
    10FF was supposed to bring 22% better performance and 40% lower power consumption. Now they have changed it in their website to 15% and 35%. And Huawei claims that in reality it only brings 20% lower power consumption compared to 16FF+. Also the products launched this year using this node didn't bring meaningful improvements in efficiency ( A11, Kirin970 ) compared to Qualcomm and Samsung with their 10nmLPE over 14nmLPP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lodix View Post
    10FF was supposed to bring 22% better performance and 40% lower power consumption. Now they have changed it in their website to 15% and 35%. And Huawei claims that in reality it only brings 20% lower power consumption compared to 16FF+. Also the products launched this year using this node didn't bring meaningful improvements in efficiency ( A11, Kirin970 ) compared to Qualcomm and Samsung with their 10nmLPE over 14nmLPP.
    Again, TSMC has under-delivered 7ff? Do tell...

    Let's not forget that the Apple A11 is TSMC 10nm and it is the leading SoC. Same as 20nm. QCOM whiffed at TSMC 20nm but Apple did amazingly well. The iPhone 6 is one of my favorite phones...

    So what does Apple know about designing SoCs that the others don't? First and foremost Apple knows how to partner with a foundry (they write very big checks). 20nm and 10nm were built hand-in-hand with Apple specifically for Apple. With FinFETs the process secret sauce is everything and only the trusted few will have full access to it. If you are on the outside like QCOM and Huawei you are fighting with one hand tied behind your back, absolutely.

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    Daniel, you keep asserting that Broadcom "will" acquire Qualcomm. You are very informed and connected in general, but could not be more wrong about this claim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffreyHF View Post
    Daniel, you keep asserting that Broadcom "will" acquire Qualcomm. You are very informed and connected in general, but could not be more wrong about this claim.
    It's just my opinion and also the opinion of 2,200 others....

    Broadcom buying Qualcomm just won't happen? (Poll)

    I have met Hock Tan and heard him speak on several occasions and I would never bet against him, absolutely.

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