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Last edited by Daniel Nenni; 10-30-2011 at 09:26 PM.
The IEEE is an international organization as far as I can tell, so it's probably not in their remit to preserve jobs in the USA.
In theory the IEEE is a democratic organization which you can join and attempt to steer if you don't like what they are doing, although it may be pay-to-play in some corners.
Having been an H1-B immigrant, I can't say that I was treated as "slave" labor, and seems likely that allowing more immigrants into the USA will help keep the industry here. It would appear the bulk of the EDA software industry has been moved to Bangalore, and personally I'd rather they had offered free/extended H1-Bs so that it stayed here (they won't interview me for the Bangalore jobs).
Iagree with you.
Wow! Interesting email exchange! Please read it and share your thoughts as this is a very important topic!
"the complaints about skill shortages boil down to the fact that employers can't get candidates to accept jobs at the wages offered. That's an affordability problem, not a skill shortage. A real shortage means not being able to find appropriate candidates at market-clearing wages. We wouldn't say there is a shortage of diamonds when they are incredibly expensive; we can buy all we want at the prevailing prices."
Out of my four children I will NOT have one engineer. So far I have a math teacher and a fireman/paramedic. Next will probably be an occupational therapist and my youngest is looking at veterinary science. Disappointed? Not really. I told my kids to chose something they love because they will be doing it for a long long time. Retirement will probably be pushed out to 75 years old by then!
My kids grew up with leading edge technology so they may take it for granted. As a parent, as a co-creater of said technology, it is much easier to love it.
Thank you for posting!
This is IEEE-USA whose members are US only and who is chartered to address issues affecting its US membership and their interests.
I too am an immigrant. Had to stand in line for two years, unable to leave the country while my green card was in progress. 6 months, just to get into the country, originally, under an internal company transfer. Had to wait 5 years to get citizenship while holding a green card. Leave for a year, and the green card would be void.
You want to immigrate, then I say you do it the way we had to - many immigrants feel cutting the line is unfair to both other qualified immigrants in the queue and to domestic workers. Show that there is not one US engineer (permanent resident counts, not just citizen) that can fill the position and that you have special skills, like I had to, by placing an ad for 30 days in EE Times or someplace like that. In this day and age, that would be an unemployed engineer, with "excessive experience", that easily fills almost any opening.
Few also know that there actually is an entrepreneur's visa program already in place, but it does not game the H1B quota to help universities with their foreign grad student glut and VC's cousins, nephews, and nieces don't get a free ticket into the country, making engineering immigration a social-class, instead of a brains, issue.
When the polticspeak says "not enough skilled US workers", this is what is going on, and where that e-mail exchange I posted nailed it - not enough American grad students. The universities screwed up, and are now shoving foreign students down companies' throats via this kind of lobbying, when companies like Intel and others want a healthy mix of foreign and domestic workers, and when military and aerospace contractors need citizen PhDs.
Last edited by Andy T; 10-31-2011 at 10:07 AM.
If someone gets a Ph.D. in STEM in an American University it was most likely paid for by a combination of US industry and government. If they cannot stay in the US and must return to their home country, we've just wasted ~$300-500k, not to mention the fact that that engineer improves the engineering capabilities of their own country.
Concerning fairness: Rules change, and that too bad. Unfairness ("cutting in line") is the result of manipulating policy for the common good. It is not hard to find someone who had it easier coming to this country, and millions who had it harder.
Concerning "universities screwed up": it is effectively free to get a Ph.D. in STEM (if you are a citizen and a smart and a little clever). I don't know how the government and universities could make it a better deal. I was faculty at a major research university for seven years, and there were still more slots for Ph.D. engineering students than qualified US applicants. I (probably) had a bias towards US students (easier to fund, less homesickness), but I still could not fill my funded slots with US students only.
$300,000 to $500,000 taxpayer money, using your numbers, wasted on students who will return to China and India? It's not wasted at all. It goes straight into the pockets of professors, overhead, and to administrators. Almost zero goes to the student.
The cost of sending them back to jobs in their own country is indeed zero if the number of domestic students is kept in balance - and therein lies the rub. Foreign tuition has skewed the graduating class to where it now seems to matter, and it shouldn't. Foreign income should offset the costs of educating domestic students, with domestic education being the priority. Money, not education is an American priority, particularly in light of budget cuts where academic jobs are in jeopardy.
"Faced with sharp cuts in state funding, the 10-campus system is ramping up its campaign to recruit high-paying students from other states and countries, even as record numbers of California students seek a UC education." University of California Seeking Out-Of-State Students (do you think it is a coincidence that the sponsor of this House legislation is from California?????)
And you can't recruit that foreign tuition money if there are no jobs waiting for them in the promised land. A land where a PhD makes in one day, what a PhD back home makes in a month. Like all illegal or shady immigration policy/tolerance, the fault lies in the perpetrator, the recruiter, the employer, the school, not the worker or student. A student comes to the US with full intentions of working in the US after graduating, which is contrary to their stated intent on the student's visa. S/he, in fact, makes a promise that work WILL NOT be sought or engaged and that they will go home when they graduate. With fingers crossed behind the back and a wink at an employer who can get a slave PhD as a 33% off blue light special.
You have it bass ackwards and never ending. Anyone who has kids should be seriously concerned about the complacency and indifference being displayed by an ignorant public and naive professionals against the twisted goals of corporations and academia in terms of national security and economic interests. A national strategy in the USA is non-existent, while China just announced a petaflop supercomputer using processor chips it developed and fabricated at SMIC in China. The machine is to be used for "military purposes". That means simulation of nuclear weapons to increase yield. Why would they need to do that? Who taught them how to do that? In a world of 7B people and an ever increasing population, and in a world with finite and consumed resources, what will happen when resources do become scarce and they desperately feel the world's resources are theirs for the taking, just as the USA does today?
Someone has thought about that one. But not anyone in the USA. Too busy minting money to care. And that, is the downfall of every empire. Lack of vigilance, indifference, complacency, greed, and no long term cohesive strategy to win. Wars are won on economics - they are also fought over economics. And if you really want to win and take everything, push the red button.
Last edited by Andy T; 10-31-2011 at 02:54 PM.
I say lets make it simpler: just have an immigration tax, as long as you pay it you get to stay and work. Pay enough tax and you get permanent residency, you stop paying it if you become a citizen.
After this morning's discussion on student loans on PBS I'd be surprised if any Americans will risk going to college.
A PhD in China makes $800/month. A PhD in Silicon Valley, $10,000. Allocating $2200/month for living expenses, you are OK with an $7000/month immigration tax, then, to remove the financial disparity that creates palacial living conditions back home?
This is the math of illegal, or "cut in line", immigration. Stashed, send-home, entire wages, loyalty to the homeland with no intentions to stay and contribute to society, parasitic on taxpayers for services and education,, failure to culturally adjust and repatriate, while living with 8 guys in someone's converted garage.
If we're going to play a global economy game, the field has to be level. You can't have a domestic worker starving, while his neighbor sends money home to a palace because he makes 10X the wage in a foreign land.
A 70% immigration tax is ridiculous.....send them home, where they will have jobs and make great money as compared to their own society members and keep the economy going of the country that, as was said, has spent $500,000 educating you, by putting its domestic grads to work in balance with foreign workers.
I dont think there is much pay difference between a immigrant and a citizen. If you talk about demand-supply , I dont think the average slaaries are going down. I work in ASIC physical design and most of my friends are making 100k + . I feel the writer is just an insecure person having a mid life crisis. One of the main reasons the economy of USA has grown is because of "foreign brains" staying back. Just look at the number of indians and Asians in any semi company.
The only valid point is that - IEEE is a tech organisation. It should not be poking its nose in immigration policy matters.. But neither should a "senior member" take the opportunity to rant about his job insecurity.